Welcome to the discussion of our first annual ARWZ Autumn Book! I invite everyone to pick up a copy of Heroes Die by Matthew Stover and join in the discussion here on ARWZ. If you've already read this book you're more than welcome to join in.
Here are some questions to get us started off:
What are your first impressions of this book? How did the opening line strike you? The opening paragraph?
How do you like this book after reading the first chapter? Does it intrigue you to continue? What questions does it create in your mind? How eager are you to get the answers?
Which of the characters intrigues you most? Do you find that you identify with any of the characters? If so, why? If not, then what about the characters make you want to continue (or not) reading about them?
Please contribute any observations, comments or questions you have about this novel as you read along.
Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 124 Location: Over there
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:35 pm
Hm, what can I say.
I'm 26 pages in, guess thats the first chapter...
Do I like it? not sure. The writing is good, tone a little rough but belivable.
So far the best is the small glimpses of the social order in the main character's "real" life (that of Hari). A cast-based society with possibilities of moving up? Interesting...
Not necessarily sure I like the "hero" but early days yet so...
I've also read the prologue. Prologues and epilogues are usually a bad sign, but this one seems to actually be relevant to the story.
The start wasn't so hot. If you'd read just couple of first pages, you could have thought this was a fairly standard fantasy world with an assassin main character. Then, a classic bait-and-switch. This is, of course, an interesting tactic but could turn off some people.
The story itself seems to work on two levels: the second on is the "real world" for this book. A future or an alternate world to ours with a caste system, as Epitarch said. The first one seemed at first to be a virtual reality game-kind fantasy world. However, there were mentions of Overworld natives and people dying in there. Then there was a mention of "she's not even in the same universe". Apparently these people use another dimension or universe for entertainment.
I don't think the "hero" necessarily ought to be liked. Though I find Caine ultimately likable, I think that he's all the more interesting for being riddled with flaws. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
I've now read days 1 and 2. Even though Caine isn't a very likable MC, the people he works for seem to be far worse. I would never measure a human life against a career or ratings...
This is turning out to be a very masculine book as it usually is with male writers. So far, we've only seen two female characers and one of them is the "damsel in distress" dispite the fact that people tend to think of her as competent. The other one, Kierendahl, is more interesting. I'm rather impressed by the way that she uses her illusionary apperance to her benefit (I'm also rather impressed that a male writer even thought abou that ) and manipulated the men around her. It's good for her that she apparently doesn't have to deal with any powerful women... Oh, I think that one of the people in Shanna's "adventuring party" was a woman and some of the whore at Kierendahl's place but none of those are really significant characters.
I'm also impressed by the media critique in the book. I confess that when I hear people talking about the lives of celebrities or about the plots of soap operas I usually think "don't you people have lives of your own??". Then again, maybe reading books is similar?
The caste system on this world's Earth is likely very rigidly enforced and I was happy to see some political commentary on this. I'm curious to see where that is going...
None of the characters so far have been very likable. They all grey and none seem to keep any standards of honor or trustworthiness.
Joined: 01 Sep 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Fuckin Jersey
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:50 am
See, I'm kind of a ringer on this topic since, for instance, I can't answer questions one or two anymore since I've loaned out (and failed to receive back) three copies of the book in the past couple years, and had another one disintegrate in my hands.
A couple things reasons I love this book (in no particular order):
1) The characters, even Shana, reject traditional modes of morality and honor in exchange for empathy (somewhat belatedly in the case of Caine. Oh, and stop referring to him as the "Hero," if anyone in the book deserves that title it's Shana.)
2) It references one of the best works of SF/F ever. (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress)
3) Should the reader so chose it is possible to relate even to the antagonists. Okay, except Burne, he's an evil fuckstick.
4) The fact that when I first read it in college I liked it because it was a great adventure story with more character development than I'm used to, then when I got caught up on my existentialism and I read it again it was infinitely more satisfying. I'm not saying you absolutely must be up on your Nietzsche to appreciate Heroes, but it helps. Also, don't even crack the sequel if you haven't at least read Existentialism for Dummies (which I'm almost positive exists, though I can't be bothered to google it.)
5) The phrase "hot staggering fuck." _________________ If brute force isn't working you aren't using enough.
Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 124 Location: Over there
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:18 pm
Giving this one up as a (very) bad job.
This is basically a martial arts blow-by-blow review whith a semblance of a story-line thrown in. Never mind characters not being likable, how about being believable?!?
When to only thing has going for it after 425 pages is my mild (very mild) interest in how Hari will survive going home to his masters (and their masters) and I realise that I couldn't care less about any single person described then it's time to chuck it in.
I'd give it an F were it not for the fact that it did hold out for the first 300 pages or so.
None of the characters so far have been very likable. They all grey and none seem to keep any standards of honor or trustworthiness.
That's part of what I love about Stover's writing.
I'm a bit surprised. IMHO, characters without any empathy or morals are boring. You can't give them any sort of internal conflict because they don't have them. They're just looking out for their own best interest and will have nobody stand in their way. I see people like that all the time in the real world and I loath them here. I see no reason to read about them.
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Likable characters are overrated in my opinion.
A character with a backbone or morals doesn't have to be likable.
But my problem is that if none of the characters are likable or even interesting, I'm wasting my time when I could be reading something I like more. That's why I dropped Martin.
Anyway, I've just started day five. It seems to me that somehow Caine is growing morality because he's not killing people, even though he knows that the audience is expecting that, and he didn't leave Lamorak behind even though he was told to let Lamorak get killed. This is clearly different than how he behaved previously so why has he suddenly changed? Is he just trying to get Shanna's approval? If so, why didn't he do it before? Clearly, he doesn't give a rat's ass what Shanna herself wants.
Much to my surprise, Shanna turned out to be a competent woman even though she isn't the greatest judge of character. Lamorak seemed at first to be a decent person but he turned out to be not only stupid but delusional, as well.
The world(s) in the book are more interesting that any of the characters.
I'm not very far in yet, and it is a pretty thick book, but it certainly has plenty of pace and attack. I agree that the "real world" is probably more interesting than the generic fantasy one, with its rigid caste system so that Hollywood megastar Caine (as in Cain) has to kowtow to his agent, and would get five year's Hard Labour, and a down-casting, if he touched him in anger.
I am slightly reminded of Joel Rosenberg's books in the "Guardians of the Flame" series, putting real-life people into a typical role-playing game scenario, and of course the idea of reality tv tracking actors in adventurous/dangerous other worlds isn't entirely new. _________________
Joined: 01 Sep 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Fuckin Jersey
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:18 am
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I'm a bit surprised. IMHO, characters without any empathy or morals are boring. You can't give them any sort of internal conflict because they don't have them.
It's true, Caine doesn't dither. I wasn't aware that self assuredness and force of will necessarily made for uninteresting characters though. Personally I prefer a character that can make up their mind rather quickly, and find most drawn out internal conflicts to be contrived and boring.
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A character with a backbone or morals doesn't have to be likable.
You can say plenty of things about Caine's morals (well, that he doesn't have any), but to say he lacks backbone is inane.
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Anyway, I've just started day five. It seems to me that somehow Caine is growing morality because he's not killing people, even though he knows that the audience is expecting that, and he didn't leave Lamorak behind even though he was told to let Lamorak get killed.
First, remember, Caine likes Lamorak. He'll go way out on a limb to protect a friend (even one who's fucking his wife.) Also by rescuing Lamorak he gets to piss Kolberg off in a way that can't come back to haunt him.
Second, Caine isn't growing a moral compass from somewhere, he's beginning to empathize with the people of Overworld. Previously they had been nothing more than ambulatory scenery useful entirely for the ratings potential inherent in killing, fucking, or otherwise interacting with them. Now he is beginning to see people as subjects rather than objects. The reasons for this awakening could be his relationship with Shanna, his troubles with Kolberg and the Board, or just age and wisdom.
Finally, and this is kinda cheating since the actual concept isn't brought into the books until the sequel, but Caine's motive force is "my will, or I won't." At this point in the book the Studio authorities have driven him into such a rage that the idea of killing people to increase their profits has become repugnant to him. He'd gleefully kill Kolberg, but some poor schmuck just doing a job? Not if it helps the Board.
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Is he just trying to get Shanna's approval? If so, why didn't he do it before? Clearly, he doesn't give a rat's ass what Shanna herself wants.
Pretty much true, but I'd say that he's wired so differently from Shanna that he doesn't really understand what she wants. The idea of risking yourself to save a stranger is beyond Caine's comprehension. A person he likes or loves gets absolute preference over any number of innocent strangers (whom he would probably detest.) I wish I had the book, but to paraphrase Caine "Fuck the city, I'd burn the world for her." Do you really think that would make Shanna happy? Hell, he probably knows it wouldn't. But that's who he is. _________________ If brute force isn't working you aren't using enough.
The flat-out action certainly draws one in. Sneaky, having the parts shown from Caine's point of view done in the first person! And when one is drawn in, that puts the reader alongside the folks back on the "other" Earth, watching and experiencing Caine's adventures over their expensive headsets.
So how much of an ending does this book have? Is there just one sequel, or are we in Fantasy Trilogy Land here? There are mysteries to unravel, like the strange new spell that has been cast over Mrs Caine, and the nature of the new Emperor... will they be sorted out at the end here, or will we be left hanging...? _________________
I managed to get to the end. The last day was more interesting than the day before.
I liked the book although it won't be appearing on any of my "best" lists. There where quite a few problems with the plot and the characters, though.
The biggest problem, to my eye, was that the world revolved around Caine. None of the major secondary characters had any life of their own. Indeed both Berne and Ma'elKoth were obsessed with Caine (and even then they mysteriously failed to kill him when they had the chance. Why? It's not the end of the book yet... ) and the rest were always thinking or talking about Caine or reacting to Caine's actions. Shanna's major powerlevel transformation felt like a deus ex machina. The big fight at the end read a bit like a computer game fight. Also, much of the plot required for the secondary characters to behave stupidly. Lamorak's stupidity went beyond any human limits, Ma'elKoth was said to be more intelligent than most humans but I didn't see any evidence of that.
There were no reasons to root for Caine instead of, say, Berne or Kollberg or Ma'elKoth or any of the other characters. Almost all of them are sociopaths anyway. The love triangle of Caine-Shanna-Lamorak succumbed to the worst cliche ever: make the other guy a bad guy. Alas, this also made Shanna look very stupid because she hadn't seen how stupid and delusional Lamorak was.
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Second, Caine isn't growing a moral compass from somewhere, he's beginning to empathize with the people of Overworld.
This is a question of semantics. In my eyes, when a person alters his/her behaviour to accommondate the wishes of others, that is morals.
Secondly, I don't buy that. Clearly, Caine has already friends on Overworld: King of Cant and some of his underlings. Are you seriously suggesting that Caine had just mimicked looking like a friend for years and only now he suddenly started to really like them? I don't buy that. At some point, he call the King his best friend...
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At this point in the book the Studio authorities have driven him into such a rage that the idea of killing people to increase their profits has become repugnant to him.
This is one of the biggest holes in the book. He's been working for these same people for over ten years. Surely, they've make him do lots of bad things in the past but it looks like he hadn't objected to anything. Why now all of a sudden? Surely, he's seen what the job is like before now.
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He'd gleefully kill Kolberg, but some poor schmuck just doing a
job?
He did just that at the start of the book. He's also been doing that professionally for the past ten years. Why does he all of a sudden have a problem with it? This is one the biggest problems with writing a character like this. Why would a character suddenly start hating his job?
But despite these I did like most of the book and I like the critisim of media.
It took massive self-restraint to put the book down at my usual lights-out time last night, things are boiling up nicely on both worlds... I'm just past page 400, so another 130 pages to go!
I can't say that I'm warming to our hero's dear wife, though, with her messing about trying to save some individuals, even if it means hundreds of others get killed. Maybe she and Berne should have an affair, they'd deserve each other... _________________
Finishing the book did involve going half an hour or so beyond the regular lights-out time. It certainly was a good page-turner, with plenty of suspense, excitement, and all-out action, and I'm glad I picked up the novel, although the ending did rather rush through some things one was expecting to be dealt with in more detail. Not all that many of our main heroes did die, but I suppose the number of innocent townsfolk who kicked the bucket makes up for that. I'm not sure that I'll pick up the sequel, but I might if it's at a good price and I need something to get up to Amazon UK's minimum total for free delivery.
The interview at the back was a nice idea, and it's good to see names like Heinlein and Leiber cited as inspiration. Good also to see that the author is one of those "past jobs have included bartender, international hit man, used car salesman, dynamite truck driver, and telesales rep" types, as indeed are most successsful writers it seems. _________________
Actually, I think the next book, Blade of Tyshalle, is much better. I actually read it before Heroes Die. While I love them both, I can definitely say I enjoyed Blade of Tyshalle more. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Interesting - unfortunately Blade of Tyshalle seems unavailable in the UK at the moment, Amazon.co.uk only has rather over-priced copies of the 2001/2002 paperback. I could buy new hardbacks for less! _________________
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 22 Location: near Atlanta, GA
Heroes Die by Stover
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:09 pm
I'm somewhere into Day Two... over 100 pages in.
I like the thought of a world on top of, over, ours.
I like the SF version of "reality" TV. Poking at papparazzi too.
I find the home worlds' caste system too oppressive, depressing, and cliche. I don't think this caste system was necessary to paint the producers and viewers as interested in ratings without morality. Hari's home world would have been easier to relate to, if it were more like ours, with the addition of cool gadgets.
Nice trick, capitalizing pronouns referring to Ma'elKoth, as many do to God/Yaweh/Allah. It made Ma'elKoth seem more... godlike.
Before Shanna was captured, Hari said that Caine was done killing. So his moral turnaround happened before the book started. He only agreed to go kill again to save Shanna. I don't have a problem with him developing morals through the book, since it wasn't sudden. And yes, when we first met the King, disguised as a leper covered with boils, Hari said he was his best friend in either world. _________________ Miss a meal if you must, but don't miss a book. www.ItsaMustRead.com
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) and the rest were always thinking or talking about Caine or reacting to Caine's actions. Shanna's major powerlevel transformation felt like a 
