Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:12 am
Some times. I actually like my own writing more now than I did years ago. I think it has actually improved tremendously over the years, especially my poetry.
However, I also tend to be my worst critic. I believe there is always room for improvement. So I can't say that I always like my writing, since I can find fault with much of my work if I search hard enough.
Still, the fact that editors seem to like my poetry has helped my confidence quite a bit recently. I rely at least as heavily on the opinions of others to judge my work as I do on my own. I never really know if my work is any good until it's accepted for publication, especially when I try something different. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Long, long ago, I made the dreadful decision to dump my wondrous tale of a post-apocalyptic society's resurgence.
Such a shame, I was so proud of it. Yet I'd grown up, had the sense to see that I could neither continue nor salvage that juvenile, turgid, stodgy, cliched, rambling etc etc.
I kept the plot as back-story for my Convention tales, hinted at it in a strange poem, but...
I've a raft of subsequent tales in note-books that may never see the light of day...
The person that wrote those was me -- I can tell from the style, the phrasing-- but I was younger then, and far more foolish...
Now, I still like what I write, but I know it is only the best I can do.
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:26 pm
In general, I like what I write. If I didn't, I wouldn't write it. However, sometimes I just cannot get the story right. Something about the story just doesn't work. These stories, I may go back to at some point and try and fix them, but many times I just let them shrivel on the vine. _________________ Douglas E. Gogerty
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Around the Campfire
"No, I'm from Iowa. I just work in outer space."
-James T. Kirk
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:42 pm
Violanthe wrote:
Sure, I like my writing a lot. It's just that no agents seem to like it.
Oh, I know that feeling! I like the novel I wrote. My wife, daughter, and mother-in-law all like the novel I wrote. However, a couple of friends I had read the first chapters weren't overly impressed, and I didn't get a single agent to even take a look at the whole manuscript.
This is why I was so shocked that my poetry has been so successful. I must be able to do something right, at least in terms of poetry.
Vio, if I recall correctly you're not a huge short story fan, but have you ever considered writing and submitting a handful of short stories to get a few publications under your belt? Having some previous publications may help you get your foot in the door, as it were. You have to try and do something to rise above the slush, show the agents that you're worth representing.
There's also the small press option. Have you looked into trying to publish at least one novel without an agent, through the small presses? They don;'t have the financial backing of the big presses, and you would have to do your own self-promotion, but it may be a worthwhile option to consider. J. K. Rowling was first picked up by a small British publishing house, and then Harry Potter took off from there. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Vio, if I recall correctly you're not a huge short story fan, but have you ever considered writing and submitting a handful of short stories to get a few publications under your belt? Having some previous publications may help you get your foot in the door, as it were. You have to try and do something to rise above the slush, show the agents that you're worth representing.
Actually, what I've heard is that short stories aren't so much help anymore.
I've actually had a lot of luck in getting agents interested... just not in getting representation. Of the two novels I've shopped to agents with great rigor, I got a number of requests for sample chapters, based on my query letter, and a handful of requests for the full manuscript based on either queries or samples. Just no luck getting that all illusive offer of representation. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:57 pm
Violanthe wrote:
Actually, what I've heard is that short stories aren't so much help anymore.
I find it hard to believe that a list of published works doesn't help an author in some way. I truly believe it can show an agent, publisher, or editor that the person is serious about writing, and can write publishable stuff.
I have spent time on other forums with plenty of authors who write shorter works as well as novels. Some of these people move from shorter works to novels. Some of these authors may have had their novels published by smaller presses, but they have been published.
Short stories won't pay the bills, but they might get you noticed until you can get something out there that will pay the bills. Exposure is a part of the publication game.
Trying to get your novels represented is great, but I wouldn't rule out lowering your sights a bit as well. Broaden your scope a bit.
I hope shorter works can still be helpful. Otherwise, what the heck have I been doing the past few months??!! _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:29 pm
Oh, Vio, one more thing - if you have gotten to the point where the agents want to see the whole work, then you're past the point of getting your foot in the door. You're more to the point of hoping that the agent will tell you to sit down and stay a while.
I do agree that, at that point, a list of publications isn't going to do much for you. Then it's all about the work in hand.
However, what I'm trying to say is that a list of publications may, just may mind you, help you get your foot in the door to begin with.
For me, it's a question of "should I work on another novel that may take months or years" or "should I work at things that get me exposure now, and then work on another novel in the future after I've gotten other things (poems and stories) published"? Obviously, I went with option number two. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Vio, have any of these agents said what it is they don't like? Is there any similarity in what they've said?
To cut to the chase, agents are ONLY interested in commercial fiction. If it doesn't read like a story the public will read, an editor won't buy it. If an editor isn't going to buy it, an agent isn't going through the embarrassment of sending it. Now, please don't look down at the term "commercial." The best compliment I received when first looking for an agent and publisher, was that my writing style was very commercial. What that agent meant was that it was salable. Let's face it, if your fiction isn't marketable, you have NO chance in publishing. Editors don't run publishing houses, the marketing department does!
About short stories: I consider myself a novelist. I rarely write a short story, and when I do, it's at the request of an editor. I believe you're right that a hundred published short stories will not impress an editor who publishes novels--unless you received the O. Henry or Pushcart. Short story writers are rarely novelists and vice-versa. But, writing short stories can help you develop your voice and determine your themes. I believe, though, that novelists are asked to write short stories for publication far more often than short story writers are asked to write novels.
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:48 am
So, you're saying that some exposure is basically no different than no exposure? That an agent or publisher will just ignore a writer's experience if it's in only short stories? That short stories and novels have become so separate that experience in short stories never influences becoming a novelist?
If that's the case, then the publication field has become worse than I thought. We're back to the problem I have a lot with people in general; people have become way too narrow-minded.
It's a shame, really. Especially since it appears that I have just been wasting my time. Poetry must be completely worthless, in the greater scheme of things.
Yep, put me in a little box labelled "poet", and just leave me there!
By the way, short storyists are novelists, at least on another forum where I hang out. And this was certainly true in the past; Agatha Christie and Bram Stoker both wrote many short stories as well as novels.
Maybe the difference here is the "grade" of novelist; some people are happy with small presses (that's how J. K. Rowlings was discovered), while others must shoot for the big time. If you only consider a true novelist to be someone published by a big publishing house, then, yes, many of the "short storyists' probably aren't true novelists. However, if you consider anyone to have written and published a novel to be a novelist, even if it's through a "small house" publishing company, then I am aware of several that do short stories, novels, and even poetry!
What I've been trying to say is that there are more outlets for writing out their than just the major publishers. If you believe that the other outlets aren't worthwhile, then so be it. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard, I was replying to Vio's problem with agents. And so, yes, literary agents are looking to make money off their clients; they are not looking to discover the next Coleridge. As a poet, you must have experienced the lack of professionally paying markets for poetry. And that the major publishers rarely publish books of poetry.
I am not putting down short story writers or poets, or even novelists who are not published by the top seven NYC houses. I'm just stating a fact about the condition of publishing today. If it's not commercial, you don't have a chance.
Editors in major publishing houses no longer accept unagented manuscripts. I think I may have been the last "over the transom" writer Kensington accepted. So, an editor does not get to know a writer except through the agent today. Agents do not promote an author's short stories when attempting to sell his novel.
I never said that writing short stories never influences a writer's becoming a novelist. I believe I said exactly the opposite. In fact, every bit of the writer's life influences his becoming a novelist.
Regardless of what you've read on another forum, short story writers are not novelists. Some short story writers have written novels; some novelists have written short stories. Stephen King (to be a bit more current than Christie or Stoker) writes in every form. Many writers do. But if you were to classify King ( or, in truth, Christie or Stoker), it would be for his (and their) novels. Writers, in general, are just more suited to either a short or a long form.
The difference is one of style, certainly not one of "grade." I think it's insulting to grade any artist. I certainly do not believe that the only true novelists are published by the "big" houses, and never said so.
Please do not put words in my mouth, as I did not place that chip on your shoulder.
You seem to be unaware that most (if not all) of the small presses do not require an agented submission. My post was not about those houses. Violanthe was clearly talking about how agents respond to her writing and my opening statement was clearly about agents, as well. Since an agent is necessary ONLY for the major houses, I reasoned that was her ambition.
You were not just saying to me that there are other options. You are clearly annoyed that I write for one of those big houses and that as a poet, you do not.
You are apparently unaware that my last novella was published by one of those small houses. I am now preparing a collection of short works for a small house. I did not require an agent for either. It is rare that an agented writer would need to use his agent for such sales.
I did not realize that my presence on this forum offended you so. What I post here is my opinion based upon what I have experienced in my writing career. Perhaps you would feel better if you avoided reading my posts. As before, I wish you a great deal of luck in your writing and publishing, for I cannot imagine a world without poets.
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:53 pm
It seemed to me that this thread was taking an "all or nothing" approach to publishing. If I misinterpretted that, then I sincerely apologize.
By the way, I am certainly aware that small presses don't require agents. I actually had a couple of editors at a small horror publishing house offer to take a look at my fantasy novel synopsis after I submitted a few poems to one of their anthologies, and then mentioned on their forum that I had shelved my fantasy novel. They did give me some advice regarding rewriting my synopsis, although nothing else came of it (it wasn't their type of story).
A poet certainly doesn't need an agent to submit to publications. A short storyist doesn't need an agent to submit to publications. I do believe poems and short stories can be a valid option for a writer to get works out there.
I felt that the small press option was being ignored. Sorry again if I misinterpretted what was being said. Maybe what happened to Rowlings or Paolini (his parents first self-published Eragon) are atypical examples, but it can happen.
I am not annoyed that any writer writes for a big house; that's certainly an ultimate goal. I just wanted to try and suggest that there are many routes to that goal, not just one. I've certainly learned to be flexible. Somehow, I feel more of a sense of accomplishment having had something published, with several poems under my belt, versus nothing. And I feel that I have been slowly making contacts in the field. Maybe these contacts are still "small potatoes", but it's a start, isn't it?
I still hold onto the hope that my poetry, and eventually short stories, might led to something else. I've certainly got some editors at magazine keen to see more of my work, and it has led to interest in my art as well. Perhaps I am overly hopeful, but one must always hope. Without hope, there's only despair. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:24 pm
For the sake of argument, I thought I would present what someone said elsewhere:
Quote:
I think the problem lies with making an all inclusive statement.
From a marketing standpoint, I have seen agents and editors answer both ways in one of the market guides. I'll paraphrase:
1. " I'll always look at your publishing history before the sales pitch. Everyone talks up thier novel. Actual publication means your writing walks the walk."
2. " I'm rarely swayed by short story credits. Writing short stories has little to do with writing a novel."
I wish I knew where exactly this information came from, but it does suggest that both options may be valid, depending upon your personal experience and the individual agent or editor. My point was that option one may be a valid reason to build a list of publications, even if only some agents and editors work that way.
I like the phrase "actual publication means your writing walks the walk". _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Vio, have any of these agents said what it is they don't like? Is there any similarity in what they've said?
Sometimes they do offer a bit of critique. Most of the time it's unhelpful. Once I got two agent responses within the same week, one saying that he loved the hook, but wasn't thrilled with the writing style, and the other saying she loved my writing, but the hook wasn't for her.
I've just resolved that this agent thing is a crapshoot... the upside of which is that one of these days I just might hit my target. The only thing to do is just keep writing and submitting. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Last night, I attended the Publishing Triangle Awards in NYC; my friend, Michael Rowe, was up for a major award, which he won despite the competition.
The reason I mention this is that a great many editors and publishers spoke at the ceremony. The overwhelming consensus was that publishing has changed greatly in the last decade.
I used to tell writers to forget agents, go for the editors. This isn't possible anymore. Not in the major houses. Agents are a major part of the business now. Unless you are already famous, you're not getting a book deal without one. So, Vio is right to pursue agents in order to gain entre into publishing.
The thing is, publishing is a subjective business. An agent may not like the type of story you sent. May like the story, but not your writing style. May like both, but is representing a story similar. Or, can't classify your story in a way that makes it salable. The thing is to keep pushing. Attend conventions and workshops where you know agents will be in attendance. Go to book signings of writers who are in your genre and ask about their agents. Or, for those of you with true nerve, go to the website of an writer you write like and contact him, asking who his agent is. Hey, we've all been there and I've never known a writer who wouldn't tell you his agent's name. He may not give you a recommendation, but he'll give you the address.
I am the very last writer I know of who got into a major house "over the transom." It used to happen; it doesn't anymore. Unless you have an agent, or know a writer who will contact his editor for you, there's no way in. Not any more.
I don't really have much trouble finding agents to send to. I've explored the online directories pretty thoroughly, and I recognize the name of just about every agent I see named in author acknowledgements now because I've queried at least one novel, some two, with just about every fantasy agent. It's just finding the combo of the right novel, right agent and right time. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
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