We've heard it many times before... you should cut as many adverbs and adjectives out of your writing as possible. But it's pretty much impossible to write without them. How do we strike a good balance between using them and avoiding them? _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:34 pm
One site that I was perusing one day stated that, for poetry at least, the adverbs and adjectives should not outnumber the nouns and verbs. I think this may be a bit severe, but each adjective and adverb should be a vital modifier of each noun and verb.
I tend to like colourful language, so I find works stripped of many adjectives and adverbs to be dry. Sometimes two adjectives can work together to modify a single noun, so I don't think you can simply say "one adjective is good, two are bad". The same can be said about adverbs.
Personally, I've never heard anyone state that I should cut as many adverbs and adjectives out of my writing as possible. I do think that each word should be chosen with care; each word should have a purpose.
As an aside; during the course of homeschooling, all the writing books we have used over the years recommended using adjectives and adverbs to make your writing more interesting. They are a way to add more detail to your writing. Yes, you shouldn't overuse them, but I don't think you should strip them out of your writing either.
Anyone remember the Schoolhouse Rock "Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here!"? One line stated: "enrich your language with adverbs!".
Or how about "Unpack Your Adjectives" with the lines "Then I was ready to tell them my tale. 'Cause I'd unpacked my adjectives."?
When did adjectives and adverbs become "bad"? _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:16 am
Like many movements in writing, the stripping of adverbs and adjectives is a phase. The opposite advice has been given in the past, and will be given in the future. It is not sound advice, it is just a fad.
The word choice is up to the author, and if they wish to make their writing stark as austere, they strip it of all color and flair. One way to accomplish this is not only to describe the stark landscape but to use sparse colorful words.
On the other hand, if you wish to paint a grandiose picture you need color. The words chosen as well as the colorful metaphors and adverbs and adjectives can be used to allow you to write of the grand scene.
As with everything in writing -- the story dictates the style. _________________ Douglas E. Gogerty
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Around the Campfire
"No, I'm from Iowa. I just work in outer space."
-James T. Kirk
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:06 am
Violanthe wrote:
But nouns and verbs also have a lot of color to them. More vivid color, too.
I don't necessarily agree. Word choice is important in many instances, but nouns and verbs by themselves don't always add enough colour. Certain nouns and verbs can add details, but I think it's the adjectives and adverbs that add more vivid colour.
Take for instance this sentence:
The skeleton raised its sword.
Rather plain, right? It's intriguing, but I feel it could be better.
Now, try this one:
The skeleton raised its falchion.
The noun falchion adds a bit more specific detail to the scene. You could argue that it adds a bit more colour (I would call it historical flavour myself), but I wouldn't call it vivid colour. It's certainly a bit more specific than the first sentence.
Now try this:
The skeleton slowly raised its rusty falchion.
Do you see how now you get a better visualization of the skeleton's action, and the appearance of its weapon? You don't always need the adverbs and adjectives in every case, but they do help the reader to form a more detailed, and more vivid, image. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
I don't think "brandishing" the sword is as evocative as slowly raising it. Raising has a purpose, and a menace, while brandishing is just waving the thing about. Were the skeleton's eyes glowing? Was there still a smell of the musty grave, from which the ancient warrior had so recently dragged itself, in the air? Did a few fat beetles fall out of the rusty armour as it staggered forward...?
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:06 pm
Custer wrote:
I don't think "brandishing" the sword is as evocative as slowly raising it. Raising has a purpose, and a menace, while brandishing is just waving the thing about.
Good point, Custer. I was wondering if anyone would pick up on the different meanings of "raised" versus" brandishing". I still think brandishing has a more-specifically martial meaning than raising, but yes, the one doesn't really mean the other.
Word choice is so important to get exactly the right point across.
How about this for even more action?:
The skeleton swung its rusty falchion as rotting shreds of mail rattled against its mouldering bones.
You get an action with some colour and a sense of decay, and a sound as well.
As for the other details, let's let imagination fill them in. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:46 am
Quote:
The skeleton swung its rusty falchion as rotting shreds of mail rattled against its mouldering bones.
As you can see from this example, that a gothic-style horror story needs to be laden with adverbs and adjectives to be successful.
However, not all stories need this. Like I said, if you wish to establish a stark and cold world, using few adverbs and adjectives will enhance the story in subtle ways.
The story's subject and the world in which it resides should determine the amount of coloring that needs to be added with adverbs and adjectives. Thus, there are no rules on how many are too many and how few are too few. The story dictates. _________________ Douglas E. Gogerty
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Around the Campfire
"No, I'm from Iowa. I just work in outer space."
-James T. Kirk
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:57 pm
DougGogerty wrote:
However, not all stories need this. Like I said, if you wish to establish a stark and cold world, using few adverbs and adjectives will enhance the story in subtle ways.
Or perhaps fewer and simpler adverbs and adjectives chosen with greater care. (Perhaps just another way of saying the same thing you already have.) Adverbs and adjectives chosen for use in such a work should definitely fit the atmosphere and setting. Stark, cold, and grey are good ones for such a setting. Short and simple.
I agree, the work dictates word choice. Not just adjectives and adverbs, but nouns and verbs, too. Still, you should have some image-forming words sprinkled carefully in there for the reader to be able to "see" your world. Perhaps just not as many as in a more Gothic-feeling piece. A starker setting may have sparser adverbs and adjectives used more sparingly than a more colourful one.
When you're talking about Gothic tales, or fantasy with similar elements, the more intense use of adbverbs and adjectives can help to build that emotion of dread and horror. Some times an author wants to develop a very specific image for the reader. Not just the sights, but sound, smell, touch, and perhaps even taste. Stuff like "glistening slime", "charnel-house stench", "a squelching, writhing mass", and "eldritch murmurs". (Eldritch is one of my favourite words.)
I guess I'm just Gothic at heart. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
It does all depend on what type of story you are composing, and what sort of effect you want, whether "as rotting shreds of mail rattled against its mouldering bones" is very useful atmosphere, or just slows the story down at a time when all-out action is called for.
Taste and smell are, indeed, much under-used in fiction - think how much work the reader will do for you if you mention the smell of the new-baked bread, the brewing coffee, or indeed the decomposing cadaver.
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:56 pm
Custer wrote:
It does all depend on what type of story you are composing, and what sort of effect you want, whether "as rotting shreds of mail rattled against its mouldering bones" is very useful atmosphere, or just slows the story down at a time when all-out action is called for.
Yes indeed, you would probably want to follow the "atmospheric line" with a shorter "action line" if it's an action sequence. Too many adjectives and adverbs can bog down the action, if not used wisely.
Ahh, the naseous stench of a rotting corpse can really set the right horrific atmosphere when used at the proper moment.
<<cough, cough, gag, retch>>> _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
A slow, descriptive, atmospheric build-up - and then pow!, sudden and frantic action, yes, I'd go for that. "Daphne screamed as the sword descended, but had time to notice the detailed engavings on its blade of dragons and elves merrily cavorting as she flung herself frantically to one side, avoiding a small black (with green highlights) beetle which had just dropped out of the lumbering skeleton's rusty, time-eroded cuirass..." - too much detail at the wrong time, yup. _________________
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:14 pm
Custer wrote:
"Daphne screamed as the sword descended, but had time to notice the detailed engavings on its blade of dragons and elves merrily cavorting as she flung herself frantically to one side, avoiding a small black (with green highlights) beetle which had just dropped out of the lumbering skeleton's rusty, time-eroded cuirass..." - too much detail at the wrong time, yup.
Too much detail period!
I think this is a very good example of too many descriptives. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
That was the general idea, yes. There might possibly be a time for mentioning the design etched into the blade (or encrusted on it), or beetles and rusty cuirasses, but not in the middle of the action. _________________
Well, and we also have to consider that we're composing this sentence out of context. Many of the atmospheric details we're trying to pack into this sentence may already be established if it were in context. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
We are indeed working in miniature here, though the general principle that details come during the quiet bits would seem a reasonable one. Adjectives and adverbs do sit better during the actual descriptive passages, as they are, well, descriptive kinds of words... _________________
Um, IMHO, there's an aspect of pacing, too. A surfeit of adjectives, adverbs, commas etc etc in a sentence can ruin the flow. Worse, it can stick in your throat.
Done right, you can have an almost poetic rush...
FWIW, I still get cold sweats remembering formal Latin & German where all the verbs and modifiers were at the end of interminable sentences...
Probably explains why I never really took to FORTH or other RPN (post-fix) programming. As a tool for unravelling logical log-jams, FORTH was superb. If you wanted to get something done quickly, then neat, careful, short lines of TinyBASIC (in-fix) did just fine...
D'uh, and I had to go back and put 'then' in *that* sentence to fix pace...
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Re: Pacing, too...
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:06 pm
Nik wrote:
Done right, you can have an almost poetic rush...
Or actual poetry.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist. I often dig through the thesaurus and dictionary for just the right word while I'm composing my poetry. I will read and re-read a line until all the words sound right together. At least, that's how my best works are formed. Just the right descriptives in just the right places may be even more important in verse than in prose, since verse is a more restricted format.) _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:58 am
Violanthe wrote:
And if you have a slower descriptive passage, you can use more verbs and nouns and achieve the description with maybe an adverb or adjective per sentence.
Nouns are basically names of things. Verbs are basically actions or states ("this is that" sort of thing). In order to describe things and actions, you really need adjectives and adverbs. That's their function, to describe, to give details. You can add more nouns to add more things to the scene, and more verbs to add more action, but to add even more descriptive details, you need adjectives and adverbs as well.
Within the crypt stood a statue
Within the mouldering crypt stood a grotesque statue. (adding adjectives gives you more details)
Within the mouldering crypt, next to the coffin, stood a grotesque statue. (adding a noun, actually the noun is part of a prepositional phrase)
When you use the verb "is", in its various tenses, you need to use an adjective to form a complete sentence. Now, the language is very passive, so it's recommended that you use "is" sparingly, but you can use it.
The castle is deserted. (Deserted is an adjective describing the castle.)
The derelict old castle is deserted. (Adding a couple of adjectives adds a little more detail. Now you know the castle is old and derelict, which you didn't in the prior sentence.)
Yes, adding more nouns can add more things, but only adjectives can tell you about these things. Adjectives give you the shape, colour, texture, size, smell, taste. etc. Verbs will add action, but only adverbs can tell you the "how" of that action.
I still don't understand the "one adjective and one adverb" per sentence rule. I have seen this stated elsewhere in terms of poetry, but I don't think it's always necessary to follow this rule. Maybe the standard rule could be one adjective per noun, and one adverb per verb, but even that rule can be broken often enough.
The dog ran down the street.
The large dog ran down the street.
The large brown dog ran down the street.
The last one does indeed have two adjectives, and two adjectives for one noun, and yet the sentence works just fine. It actually gives you the most information out of the three.
Different adjectives can actually give you a different feel to a sentence. That's the point about adjectives; they can change the "feel" of a sentence.
A sword sat in a barrel.
A burnished sword sat in an oaken barrel.
A rusted sword sat in a worm-eaten barrel.
See how the different adjectives give a different feel to the last two sentences? Which sword would you prefer to use?
Maybe I was just taught to write differently from other writers. Maybe my writing style is "old school" versus "new school". What I was taught is that, if you want the reader to form a clear image, you need some image-forming clues. Adjectives and adverbs are those clues. Nouns and verbs by themselves are just not enough. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Nouns are basically names of things. Verbs are basically actions or states ("this is that" sort of thing). In order to describe things and actions, you really need adjectives and adverbs.
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:18 pm
Violanthe wrote:
That's not true. Nouns and verbs can be just as evocative, oftentimes moreso, than adverbs and adjectives. Especially verbs.
I just plain don't understand this. This is not how I was taught how to write, and what the word choices mean and do for writing. It's also not how I taught my daughter to write. It's not how they teach writing in all the workbooks and texts that we've used over the years. It's also not how most people seemed to write until quite recently.
Adjectives and adverbs are descriptive words. That's their function. Obviously adjectives and adverbs can't be used alone because their role is to modify nouns and verbs, respectively.
Can your choice of verbs and nouns be evocative? Certainly, but they are only one of the descriptive tools out there for a writer. They only tell you part of the story. Adjectives and adverbs tell you more of the story.
Here's an example: murmur.
Yes, as a verb or a noun it's somewhat evocative, but it only tells a reader "To say in a low indistinct voice" or "A low, indistinct, continuous sound". It doesn't say, by itself, whether it's a really bad sound, or just unusual sound, or even just a normal low sound.
Dreadful murmurs says much more. Now you have a sense of something unusual, or at least something that can elicit dread.
I would prefer to use dreadful murmurs in my horror work than just plain murmurs.
Please explain to me how verbs and nouns are more descriptive than adjectives and adverbs used with nouns and verbs. I've taught my daughter since grade school that verbs are words that denote actions, occurrences, or states of being, nouns are people, places, and things, and adjectives are words that modify nouns or pronouns to give more information about those nouns or pronouns. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Do you truly think hound is more evocative than spectral black hound?
This whole discussion has got me scratching my head in utter bewilderment. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
The problem is, you're giving a bunch of examples, but they're all out of context.
I actually find murmur to be more evocative than "dreadful murmur". What is a dreadful murmur? I don't know what that sounds like, but I do know what a murmur sounds like and if it were put in the right context then it very well could convey a sense of dread without using the adjective.
One certainly can't eschew adverbs and adjectives altogether, but they become problematic when not used sparingly. One of the worst cases of misuse I've seen in my day with adverbs and adjectives is when they are overused in a transparent attempt by a writer to describe his/her imagination of a scene so exactly that the description becomes ponderous. Cutting all but the most necessary adverbs and adjectives would make the prose much cleaner and stronger by working through implication. Too many writers think that they have to describe everything, when actually prose sounds a lot better and is more evocative when more is left to the reader's imagination. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:56 pm
Well, Vio, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know what works for me, but perhaps that's only really in poetry, which may be a whole different ball game from prose. I also know what I was taught, and what I taught my daughter (based on what I read and understood in the various English texts), and what I see in the things I read, but I admittedly read a lot more classic literature than contemporary literature.
I just worry that contemporary prose is losing some of the richness that classic prose possessed. Other than my forays into haiku, I am not a minimalist. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:17 pm
Oh, one more thing - I do agree that adjectives and adverbs can be overused. However, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule that says "less is always best". One of the skills of a writer is the ability to decide what's enough, and what's too much.
I've seen statements like "nouns and verbs should always outnumber adjectives and adverbs". This is ridiculous, as in the dog example I posted earlier.
Dogs are so variable (with hundreds of breeds), that "dog" by itself can mean twenty different things to twenty different people. In the sentence "a dog ran down the street", "large brown" can help the reader form a more specific image. And in this instance, "large" and "brown" work in conjunction to modify "dog".
I obviously disagree with the statement that "verbs and nouns are more evocative than adjectives and adverbs". I simply don''t understand this. I feel that adjectives and adverbs, when used properly in conjunction with nouns and verbs, are more evocative than nouns and verbs alone.
The standard I follow: I don't go through and count adjectives, adverbs, nouns, and verbs. Instead, I try to write sentences that sound "right", ones that look right to the eye and roll right off the tongue. Perhaps it doesn't follow the current literary trend, but trends have a nasty habit of changing over time. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
I certainly still use adverbs and adjectives in my work. But I think it's a useful exercise for writers to conteplate how many they can eliminate. I try to eschew adverbs and adjectives whenever the verb or noun communicates largely what I want to say on its own. If the adverb or adjective I want to use simply couldn't be inferred, or is perhaps even counter-intuitive to the verb or noun being used, I'll go ahead and use the modifier _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Although I can agree with eliminating verb tags (He said gruffly, etc.), I absolutely disagree with the idea of eliminating all adverbs for the sake of streamlining. Beautifully placed adjectives and adverbs make a story. They are essential to historical fiction and, I believe, to speculative fiction. I cannot understand why every writer since the mid-60's wants to write like Stephen King. Although it has served him very well, it may not be compatible with your personal style. I love adverbs! I love using them in my writing and I love reading them well-placed in other people's writing.
My general rule is: If something appears anywhere as a general writing rule--disregard it!
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:18 pm
What makes an adverb a "verb tag"? There are certainly times where you can put a more specific verb, but there are other times that an adverb must be used to make that verb more specific.
I think the key may boil down to proper verb choice. Or proper word choice in general.
By the way, I couldn't write like Stephen King if I tried. It's not my style at all.
Maybe that's my problem. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard, for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the character from "dime novels" who is the epitome of this, but essentially it's used in dialogue like this:
"Put the girl down," Tom shouted heroically.
"You saved me just in time," she whispered relievedly.
"I'll get her the next time," the villain cried angrily.
Essentially, the use of the adverb in that manner is redundant, therefore unnecessary.
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:04 pm
Now, in this example I can clearly see that the adverbs are rather clumsily used. I definitely agree that a different word choice would improve this little snippet tremendously.
I guess I just have a gut-feeling approach to writing. I do what feels right, regardless of the adjective or adverb count. There will be times, like in David's example, where adverbs can be used too much. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:41 pm
Quote:
My general rule is: If something appears anywhere as a general writing rule--disregard it!
I could not agree more! Rule #1: There are no rules! _________________ Douglas E. Gogerty
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Around the Campfire
"No, I'm from Iowa. I just work in outer space."
-James T. Kirk
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 Posts: 649 Location: NSW, Australia
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:41 pm
Yep, I think this "issue" is a load of old cobblers too. You write according to the way *you* write. After all, are you being yourself or someone else when you write?
I don't know. I'm a big fan of the approach of learning to write very simply, getting comfortable with that, and then... and only then experimenting with more elaborate prose. _________________ Violet "Violanthe" Kane
[email protected] ARWZ.com: A Magazine of Alternative Reality Fiction
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Minnesota
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:17 pm
I think there is a school of thought that treats coloring of sentences as an evil best avoided. I am definitely NOT in this school of thought. This was sort of brought up in one of the blogs I read with a Valentines theme. Naturally, the blog writer is on my side! _________________ Douglas E. Gogerty
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Around the Campfire
"No, I'm from Iowa. I just work in outer space."
-James T. Kirk
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 523 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:34 pm
In some ways, it may be the difference between Lord Dunsany and Stephen King. It truly may be a matter of style.
But, a proper balance must be reached. Too many adjectives and adverbs can bog down a work. Too few might make the work seem too sparse and austere.
Use what works in your own situation. Colourful sentences work for me, but less colour may work for somebody else. _________________ "I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 203 Location: Vancouver, Canada
How many adverbs and adjectives?
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:07 am
This discussion has been going on for a while, and covered a lot of ground, (some of it very boggy) but I think one element that has not been mentioned is patterns.
I think one of the most obvious mistakes you can do with descriptive words is set up a pattern, where you, for example, use two adjectives for every noun. People pick up on that kind of thing very quickly, and while they may say "too many," they just mean that poor writing technique drew attention to them.
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I was wondering if anyone would pick up on the different meanings of "raised" versus" brandishing". I still think 